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#1 Secret Igshar

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 01:34 PM

Is Solomon lacking a buff that increases his :STR: :DEF: and :DEX: all while healing his :HP:!? YEAH HE TOTALLY DOES.

Not really, though.

But, I'm curious, and I would like to hear from you all. You've had some time to grow to love your little fluffy Spirit companions. What do you think your friends need in order to become better? More techs? Spells? Do they need to be able to heal themselves? Their masters?

Any and all suggestions are welcome. Specific suggestions per Spirit would be MUCH more beneficial than broad ideas of what Spirits should do~

I more than likely won't be taking ALL suggestions into account, because I know some of you will screech that Erden needs to be able to cast Wall or that Karka needs more :INT: built into him or that the Spirits need more :AP: to use... Note that none of these are likely to be held as decent suggestions.

But, I will be taking MOST suggestions into account, so long as they're not focused around making X Spirit into what would be an essentially overpowered ally which easily outclasses all the others.


tl;dr: Suggest new spells/techs/etc for Spirits in future chapters! O: Your ideas might show up in the Inferno!

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#2 Lexaeus

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 01:38 PM

You know my suggestion for Erden but I would like the spirits to have a 1 hp healing spell to help their companion buddies with getting back on their feet.

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#3 Xanius

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 03:16 PM

I won't say change any builds on spirits even though I really want to since I think a few just... aren't too great. But I'll suggest a few things instead that can help certain builds take advantage of what they have over other spirits. Make them different from others in another way then just stats on them really.

Since I'm a Fire/Thunder user I'll stick with talking about the ones I have since I know them the best.

Lets start with Solomon. Solomon is really nice. And I like him a lot. Only bad thing with him is him low speed. He cant compare to the damage Indra can deal if Indra gets to double people. Sure you can spend more points to Solomon speed but if you're going to just want him to double you're better picking up Indra. Now how can Solomon get better? Well... Since I see people fighting 1x1 with him or 2x1 with them doubling him... a tech that increases his def could be nice. Like a guard. +10 or so Def. Something like that. It sucks for the 2x1 so then I thought, why not give him a Str buff? Or a Str and Dex buff. 10 MP, +5/7 in Str and Dex for 20 turns or so. He'd be able to do pretty nice damage with it while hitting enemies very nicely too. I think it'd be nice for Solomon really.

Now, Indra, since I talked about him a little already. Indra shouldn't get anything to help his defenses at all. That's not for him. Giving him something to deal more damage...ehh.. again he deals damage the best so that'd make him overpowered. But I don't think it'd be bad to give him a tech/spell that would make him get a sure hit. I know he isn't suppose to be the most accurate. But I can see him charging up and delivering a blast of concentrated power at an enemy. Like a 4/5 ADR -5 or more Str +15 Dex. He losses a bit of his str to deal a Sure Hit to an enemy. It'd be pretty high so it couldn't be abused but I think it'd be nice. Help him out with high Eva enemies too. Would just take awhile for him to be able to use it.

As for Erden, he's pretty cool. Nice defenses. Massive HP. Debuff, and he's a tank at that. Now... he is str. He can gain an upper tech for him to deal more damage. But I'm not sure if you want to put together a debuff and an upper tech... but if you would, something to help out his lower str and low dex would be nice. +5 Str and +5 Dex maybe? Just to help him out a slight bit.

Neteru, he's a mage with higher speed and eva at that. If you ever give Haste out, I think he'd be the one that should get it. To allow him to double player a bit easier. Spirit only casting of course. 15 MP maybe for 15 turns. He already has Blind which makes him really nice. Giving him haste might make him crazy strong but he does have lowish res and hp so a magic enemy could still knock him nicely.

Now Marjan, I like marjan but the biggest problem for him with me is that he has two 15's in HP and MP. That makes him... a bit weaker then most spirits in a way. If you compare Faz to Marjan, they have nearly the same stats. Only difference is their two 15's. Marjan has it in his HP Faz has it for his Magic. Marjan will deal less damage then Faz on average without the debuff for Marjan. Faz's HP doesnt hurt him at all. A simple cure and he's back and kicking if he dies. For Marjan? If he ever gets to 10 HP or dead he'll be brought back with 30sih HP. Not even half of his full. All that HP is hard to manage and always get back. Marjan isn't suppose to deal a lot of damage since he's more of a 'wall' spirit. Taking damage slow while being able to stay alive awhile. With that I wont say give Marjan more wall or something. But give him something to compliment his low magic but high HP and MP. I dont like his massive HP but why not give him something that allows him to use it? Lets say a 15 HP take away maybe from him... that deals a high base damage to enemies? Like a Reverse Drain. Taking away part of his life to deal stronger then average damage to the enemy. I know he shouldn't deal lots of damage... but... with him sacrificing part of his life to deal more damage, I think you'd think about that. -15 HP 25 base damage maybe. Of course numbers would change how you see fit but I'm just throwing things out there.


I know, I know, wall of text. But I'm just throwing ideas out there and those idea might/probably will change later on but they are things to think about on them. Anyone can say whether they're bad, good, or whatever. Just putting some thoughts out in the open.

Doubling posting I know but I think this is a kinda important post.


So, after talking a lot to others we came to figure that Indra, Neteru, Karka and Marjan are the most 'broken' or in need of help.

I'll start off with Indra.


Indra is really broken. How? All you do is all points to Str and Spd. He doubles like everything and hits off 40's all the time. Player just walls and lets him kill anything and everything really fast. And he's being whored out by everyone which gives others spirits no love. To knock him down a bit it was suggested his stats be switched a bit. His Dex be moved to Eva. Make him the Eva/Str spirit for people that can use him since we only have one. Along with that it was suggested that his Str be moved to his HP. So he'd have 15 AP in HP, 15 AP in Eva, 11 AP in Str, 11 AP in Dex. He'd still be very very very useful and he'd give a lot of different strategies to come up with. Since he's a glass cannon his HP can stay 55 though. Since... even with Eva, if he gets hit he'll crumble really badly. Still making him a glass cannon.

As for Neteru, his 15 Spd really hurts him. Str users usually pick him up and Str users most of the time need to double. It's a bit hard to pull off 30 speed to double him. And having him double you is really hard too. Now I know you might say that he doesnt need to double you but if he doesnt need to, why not move his 15 to his MP so he can have 11 spd with 75 MP? It'll allow for more Dex debuffing as well from him. Just a thought on that.

As for Karka, having two 15's in HP and MP makes him a little... lack luster. Sure he doesn't need to recharge a lot and can take some hits but it's too much imo. His MP could be moved to his Res giving him 15 Res. Making him a Magic wall. We have two Str walls so why not a magic one? He seems fit for it really. High HP, High Res, High Def, Low Magic, Low Spd. He'd be Erden just in a Magic form. I think he'd be a bit more useful that way.

For Marjan to make him less of a copy of Karka, I'd say move his 15 HP to his Magic. I know he has the debuff to help lower enemies Res, but if you take the two spirits you lose when you get him, Faz and Karka, He should get a combination of what they are. Knocking down his HP makes him a bit weaker and can be hurt more while boosting his magic will let him damage more. You'll have to pick between making more of a wall or more of an attacker. Either way you pick you give up something. You make him more of an attacker he'll get hurt way more, make him more of a wall and he cant deal as much damage.


All other spirits are pretty much balanced from what I can see. From chapter 3 being released we really got to see what spirits can do very well in many different strategies. And we also got to see what spirits start lacking a bit on certain things.

I'm just throwing these out there since others have commented on them a fair bit in the SB/AIM/whatever else and I figured they should be posted here so they can be considered. Doesn't hurt to try and maybe make things a bit more even for spirits. >_>;

Edited by Artemis, 03 August 2011 - 02:59 AM.

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#4 Secret Felix

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 01:57 AM

I really don't think Meeps needs 75 hp. If we're still going with the idea that he's a glass tank, giving him more hp just lets him sponge that much more damage. With the current bonuses he gets, 55 hp is usually enough for him to wall through two or three attack. At 75 hp, it would just let him take even more damage. I think he could actually do with less hp to make him a little more fragile, but maybe that's just me.
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#5 Xanius

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 02:01 AM

I was going to suggest lower HP, like 35 HP or so. But I wasn't sure if Ig would want to break his stat set ups of 5's 11's and 15's. Could make him have 25 HP and put an 11 on his Eva. He'd have Def, Res and Eva that way. =D

/is kidding on the three defenses part.

And yea, 75 HP just makes him more sponge like. Being able to heal 40ish with Cura would just make Indra even stronger if he had more HP.

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#6 Secret Felix

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 02:06 AM

I don't really think this cookie cutter ap arrangement is the best idea, tba. It seems on some spirits, like Meeps, it ends up being forced and detrimental.
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#7 Xanius

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 02:16 AM

Yea, I can understand your thoughts on it. I was thinking the same. But I wasn't sure how to balance spirits out nicely without them following a similar stat setup through out everything. I would like to see more Str/Def on Solomon compared to other str spirits and such. More Dex on Hale, more speed on Indra, etc. But that might just make things more 'broken'.

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#8 Axel Ryman

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:41 AM

I think maybe a healing spell should come out in Chapter 4 so the spirit can heal his/her companion. To make it a bit balanced though, and since the Spirit is still somewhat of a fledgling, make it so the Spirit loses 15 HP to give 15 HP to his companion.Spell cost at max level could be 5 maybe do to it taking HP?

#9 Dion

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:44 AM

If indeed what Axel proposed is considered, I would say boost the 15 to atleast 25. 15 HP is measly, even in Chapter 3, let alone 4.

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#10 Lexaeus

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 06:40 AM

One of the reasons I don't go strength very often are coping with rage and the lack of healing prowess of my spirit. I think they deserve a healing spell, nothing too serious, but they should get one. In fact, I would give them two, one that heals only a single hp of anyone character. Base of 999 hp with a max of 1 for 5 mp. And a spell to only heal themselves.

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#11 Xanius

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 01:34 PM

The problem with letting spirits heal is that they are then just used to tank. People would pick up Erden or Atlas and just pile everything on to Def and Res so they couldn't take any damage and just have them be healers and that alone. It's always happened in the infernos. Always will happen too. Running around with 25+ Def and 25+ Res with 75HP on you. Not too many things can damage that let alone kill that in chapter 3.

If they ever DID get a healing spell. 15. That's it. Look at Regen. Look at how good it is. It heals you and spirit for 15 HP for 7 MP. Spirits should only get a healing spell if they can only use it on themselves and themselves only. That way they can keep themselves going but can't become this massive wall that just heals the player. They can still be a wall and heal self but it's better then allowing them to heal player.

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#12 Secret Igshar

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:10 PM

I really don't think Meeps needs 75 hp. If we're still going with the idea that he's a glass tank, giving him more hp just lets him sponge that much more damage. With the current bonuses he gets, 55 hp is usually enough for him to wall through two or three attack. At 75 hp, it would just let him take even more damage. I think he could actually do with less hp to make him a little more fragile, but maybe that's just me.

I can see how this would definitely be a beneficial idea to use for Indra.

I don't really think this cookie cutter ap arrangement is the best idea, tba. It seems on some spirits, like Meeps, it ends up being forced and detrimental.


I can see this point, and I'm very open to suggestions.

Yea, I can understand your thoughts on it. I was thinking the same. But I wasn't sure how to balance spirits out nicely without them following a similar stat setup through out everything. I would like to see more Str/Def on Solomon compared to other str spirits and such. More Dex on Hale, more speed on Indra, etc. But that might just make things more 'broken'.

Well as of right now, it's set as 15/15/15/11/11/11/5/5/5.

I could easily switch it to be more like:

17/15/15/11/11/9/5/5/5

But 18 is a MASSIVE base number for any stat on anyone. I'm VERY hesitant to shift from the 15/11/5 strategy.

Indra is difficult to balance out nicely because I don't want to give him a 15 on :DEF::RES::EVA: or :HP: because I want him to take a LOT of damage and not be able to survive it well. Any ideas on different, more balanced stat sets for Indra are completely welcome. I'm stuck because I have no real idea what I should do with his other points. If I shift his 15 :DEX: to :EVA:, like I am slightly willing (but not REALLY wanting) to do, he'd be:

55/25/15/5/5/11/15/11/15.

He'd be better than he is now with that setup. He'd avoid physical attacks frequently (more than 0% of the time) even with 0 points on his :EVA: and he would still be able to get just as many turns, only hitting SLIGHTLY less hard some of the time, since his 11 :DEX: is generally good enough to hit most enemies. :\

I think maybe a healing spell should come out in Chapter 4 so the spirit can heal his/her companion. To make it a bit balanced though, and since the Spirit is still somewhat of a fledgling, make it so the Spirit loses 15 HP to give 15 HP to his companion.Spell cost at max level could be 5 maybe do to it taking HP?


If indeed what Axel proposed is considered, I would say boost the 15 to atleast 25. 15 HP is measly, even in Chapter 3, let alone 4.


One of the reasons I don't go strength very often are coping with rage and the lack of healing prowess of my spirit. I think they deserve a healing spell, nothing too serious, but they should get one. In fact, I would give them two, one that heals only a single hp of anyone character. Base of 999 hp with a max of 1 for 5 mp. And a spell to only heal themselves.


No. This will not happen in Chapter 4. It MIGHT happen down the line, but I am at least 75% sure that it will never happen. It unbalances everything and turns Spirits into heal-slaves who do NOTHING but keep the player alive. That is something I will never allow to happen. :D

The problem with letting spirits heal is that they are then just used to tank. People would pick up Erden or Atlas and just pile everything on to Def and Res so they couldn't take any damage and just have them be healers and that alone. It's always happened in the infernos. Always will happen too. Running around with 25+ Def and 25+ Res with 75HP on you. Not too many things can damage that let alone kill that in chapter 3.

If they ever DID get a healing spell. 15. That's it. Look at Regen. Look at how good it is. It heals you and spirit for 15 HP for 7 MP. Spirits should only get a healing spell if they can only use it on themselves and themselves only. That way they can keep themselves going but can't become this massive wall that just heals the player. They can still be a wall and heal self but it's better then allowing them to heal player.


^This. Spirits will likely gain the ability to heal themselves soon, but I highly doubt that ability will ever be extended to players.



On Karka/Marjan/Neteru:

The suggestions for them are actually really nice and I will definitely consider them. The idea of Karka picking up the 15/15 :DEF:/:RES: mold might work nicely, pitting him as the direct magickal equivalent of Erden, thus availing every element of an Erden-esque Spirit, something that was bothering me for a time. Giving Marjan 15 :INT: might be a VERY good idea to improve his usefulness, due to exactly what you said. He can neither wall damage successfully nor deal damage successfully without :AP: allocated. This means you will EITHER make him survive OR make him attack, but never both.


I'm still waiting on a reasonable opinion of what we should do to decrease Indra's super-powered nature. What I think we'll have to do is give him a 15 in one of his defenses, since he currently has his 15's in offensive stats. :\ He'll need to lose ONE of them in order to be less-than-fantastic. I'm really leaning toward dropping the 15 to :EVA: from :DEX: and leaving the rest of his stats alone, as I think that best fits the mold of what Indra is supposed to be.




Please keep in mind that this thread is specifically for addressing skills that Spirits would benefit from in coming chapters, individually moreso than on the whole. Yay healing spells. This helps me little.

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#13 Axel Ryman

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 06:00 PM

I'm still waiting on a reasonable opinion of what we should do to decrease Indra's super-powered nature. What I think we'll have to do is give him a 15 in one of his defenses, since he currently has his 15's in offensive stats. :\ He'll need to lose ONE of them in order to be less-than-fantastic. I'm really leaning toward dropping the 15 to :EVA: from :DEX: and leaving the rest of his stats alone, as I think that best fits the mold of what Indra is supposed to be.


I can agree with that change, if only for a few opinionated reasons.

I see Wind and Lightning to be similar in some ways. Both of them are fast, the main difference is Wind is more for Healing/Defense(White Wind, Aero in KH) while Lightning is more of an Offense type element. Yes I know Wind could be used offensively as well, but in most case, I see Wind having some form of Defense or Healing in games.

Due to their natures of being Fast, I can see both elements having Speed and Evasion bonuses, but now comes the differences. Because of it's healing/defense nature, Wind's 3rd bonus should be in Health, Defense, or Spirit. Since I see Neteru has Magic, and I think about it, I don't see why not since Wind is normally a more magical based type Element.

Since Lightning's nature would give it a Speed and Evasion boost, it's 3rd boost would be for Strength for it's power. Dexterity, while nice, isn't helpful on something like Lightning, as it's not really accurate(Example: A lightning bolt's odds of striking the same spot twice).


So yeah there's my crappy unneeded explanation of it to show I agree.

Please keep in mind that this thread is specifically for addressing skills that Spirits would benefit from in coming chapters, individually moreso than on the whole. Yay healing spells. This helps me little.


Hmm maybe buffs for the next chapter? I was thinking maybe a spell that increases 2 stats. Here are some of my ideas.

Fire: Strength and Defense
Ice: Magic and Spirit
Wind: Speed and Dexterity
Water: Magic and Evasion
Earth: Defense and Spirit
Lightning: Strength and Speed


I had difficulty with Water and Ice so I chose that since it seemed fitting. I would of given Wind Evasion, but then I wouldn't of given Dexterity to anyone. If anything, substituting it with Evasion is also a possibility.

#14 Secret Igshar

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 06:59 PM

Hmm maybe buffs for the next chapter? I was thinking maybe a spell that increases 2 stats. Here are some of my ideas.

Fire: Strength and Defense
Ice: Magic and Spirit
Wind: Speed and Dexterity
Water: Magic and Evasion
Earth: Defense and Spirit
Lightning: Strength and Speed


I had difficulty with Water and Ice so I chose that since it seemed fitting. I would of given Wind Evasion, but then I wouldn't of given Dexterity to anyone. If anything, substituting it with Evasion is also a possibility.

I am fond of the idea of buffs. I have yet to decide if I want them to be able to buff their allies or only buff themselves. Most of the buffs I've been considering would tend to be silly to cast on masters, since, for example, Faz might get one to boost :INT: and he would clearly not cast that on his physically-attacking master.


After quite a bit of deliberation, Valor and I have decided on ideas for new stat layouts. With these stat layouts, ONE tech will be changing; Atlas' Frosty Spin will change from Full Charge to a Double Slash tech that cuts :RES: by 1 instead of cutting :DEF:. Stat ideas follow:

[table]Name:HP::MP::STR::DEF::INT::RES::SPD::DEX::EVA:Solomon6025151751011145Faz607051015171155Neteru706055151011517Erden7025121751511105Indra7025155510111217Karka705051512171155-----------------------Vulcan506055141511517Marjan607551014171155Pezro5025155512111417Atlas6025155510111417Tybalt507051215171155Hale6025141751011155[/table]



If anyone has any complaints about these stats, please voice them as soon as possible, because they WILL be implemented once I find time to do so if no one complains. If a legitimate complaint with reasons (OH HE HAS SUCH LOW INT AND NOW HE SUCKS is not a legitimate complaint; please provide reasons) I will possibly rework some stats.

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#15 Xanius

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 07:35 PM

Erden, Karka, Tybalt and Marjan are the only ones I have any problems with really. Erden and Karka... the 10 str and 10 magic throws me just a little... I mean. Erden has 10 str with a +3 Str tech. Not too great but eh he's a wall... Karka with 10 Mag compared to the 14's and 15's is a bit worrisome. They'll be dealing a lot of damage with him doing not so much. I know he's a wall but 10 just seems too low in an offense. He gets lowered from what he is. Maybe Erden and Karka can have 12 str and 12 magic while having 10 dex and 50 MP? >_>; Idk, I might just be overthinking it. I dont use walls spirits much so... yea someone else needs to comment on that.

Tybalt and Marjan, Tybalt having that 17 Magic is seriously crazy. I don't know where else to have his 17 go though. 17 Magic just seems way crazy compared to the others but there's 17 str spirits so... It might be fine. If Tybalt has Aero, it's not bad. That extra magic will help him. I know Magick Burst is 16 base and everyone uses it but I'm thinking of next chapter two when they should get Aerora/Boltra and all. =X If he gets Aerora compared to other spirits that get Boltra/Aquara it'll help make up for the difference so Tybalt is fine if he has Aero as his attacking spell for sure. Marjan... massive MP makes me a bit turned off. It's fine for chapter 2/3 but if that goes to like 90-95 in chapter 4 with only have a 7 MP spell being the highest for MP cost it'l lbe crazy to have that much. But at least he'd only have to recharge like once a fight. So he might be fine.

Most concern goes to Karka/Erden. Tybalt and Marjan are mostly those stats seem crazy high sort of things. >__>;

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#16 Dion

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 09:56 PM

I'm actually liking this a lot. Indra looks a lot better than before. Not a complete power house like before. I approve.

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#17 Lexaeus

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 07:52 AM

Erden: Switch :dex: with :str:
Karka: Switch :mp: with :int:
17 STR on Pezro? Give him 17 eva like the rest.

Do this and I'll be happy with all the changes.


edit // Oh, wow. reload. I refresh the page and those changes were done! GREAT JOB IGGY!

Edited by Lexaeus, 05 August 2011 - 07:56 AM.

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#18 Secret Igshar

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 01:40 PM

Erden: Switch :dex: with :str:
Karka: Switch :mp: with :int:
17 STR on Pezro? Give him 17 eva like the rest.

Do this and I'll be happy with all the changes.

Why would I do any of those changes? No reasons means your suggested changes are not very valid or weighty.

Karka and Erden have 12 :INT: and :STR:, respectively. Is that what you were jockeying for? O.o They had 10 before, but I realized, with help, that 10 is terrible compared to the second-worst 14 while 12 is comparable.


Also, note that all of the changes have been implemented. They are not yet permanent. :I I'm still debating whether I want Tybalt and Pezro to keep their 17's where they have them.

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#19 Xanius

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 01:44 PM

Zomg. So happy that the changes are in now. ;-; Since I beat chapter I'll probably get each spirit, try them out to make sure they are useful enough and can fight. Pretty sure all of them will be fine but I can do my part and try those guys out and all >_>;

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#20 Valor

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 01:49 PM

My thoughts with Pezzy and Tybs is that they are the two powerhouses. The only thing Ice/Water is missing is a powerful physical attacker. Hence why I suggested a 17 :STR: for him.

Wind/Thunder similarly is missing a power mage, so he's essentially Faz on steroids. Only issue there is that he has Bolt. That point is rendered moot by Magick Burst.

I would say to swap Tybs' :INT: and :RES: but Iggy doesn't want two spirits to be identical. He would be Faz in a new skin if we did that change. I don't personally see the big deal because Faz is bad ass, but there's always that to consider.

Pezro similarly could get 17 :EVA: and 15 :STR:. Then he's exactly Indra.

We want each to have at least 15 in :STR: and :INT: respectively, so there's no way that I'd want to settle for even a 14 there if we can avoid it.

We could give Pez 14 :EVA:, 15 :STR: 12 :DEX: and 17 on :HP:, but oh my goodness that's a lot of health for no reason. It's a problem, really.

Another idea is going 17 :DEX:, 15 :STR:, 14 :EVA: and 12 :HP: but that's somuchdex for no reason.

Edited by Valor, 05 August 2011 - 01:51 PM.

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