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Retooling I | II | III | IV


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#1 Secret Igshar

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 08:10 PM

So the team is going to be getting back into the thick of things, changing some of the more annoying aspects of old chapters in order to improve the general experience for our lovely users who have stuck with us so far. The list in this post will be kept updated as things are changed/fixed, and we are putting this here in order to open this up to you guys to suggest areas of the first four chapters (specifically or more broadly) which you would like to be changed. Don't worry if your idea is already seen on the list! It'll just improve the priority we place on that issue! Please try to come up with things not on the list, though!

And no, making the boss of Chapter IV easier doesn't count until Chapter V is released. ;3

To avoid spoilers, the following shadows are used:

INF - Chapter I [#CCCCFF]
INF - Chapter II [#BBBBFF]
INF - Chapter III [#AAAAFF]
INF - Chapter IV [#9999FF]

Just in case people don't want to be spoiled on things in those certain chapters. You guys don't need to worry about the spoilers, though. You can just use spoiler tags. I provided the colors in case you want to be a weirdo like me and use them.

  • Weapon Augment changes [ various ]
    Weapon Augments (Power , Mystic , etc) are too difficult to craft. This makes Crafting, in general, more of a chore than it was ever really intended to be.

  • Desert Changes [ various ]
    Deserts [I]only
    slow down new players. They [I]only
    serve to frustrate and annoy experienced players. In order to cut down on this, NUMBERS will be assigned to every area in every Desert or Desert-like area throughout the entire game so far, thus making it considerably easier to navigate for everyone. In general, these numbers will follow the place ID, but there will likely be some exceptions (example being Shifting Sands 11 acting as the Sand Wyrm's hideout).
  • [ I ]
    The first Lionel fight
    This battle is unanimously agreed-upon as being the most difficult battle in the inferno so far. I intend to make this battle easier, to allow newer players to actually get past this point. Why? Because up to this fight, you as a player have yet to actually get any actually fun toys. It's the second-to-last boss fight you have without your Spirit, and it is easily the hardest one.

  • [ II ]
    Mana Forest
    The forest is obnoxiously long and convoluted. Areas will be deleted from it in order to shorten it.

  • [ III ]
    Twinpeak Mountain
    The mountain is long and annoying. Areas will be deleted in order to shorten the climb, and also make it a lot more intuitive to reach the peak.

  • [ IV ]
    Owly Woods
    The difficulty of this dungeon is supposed to stem from the monsters you fight, not the "puzzle" involved in progressing. A guide (similar to Vanille in Archylte Steppe) will be deployed to help people progress through.

  • [ IV ]
    Kiltian Temple
    The puzzle here is a bit more complicated than it should be. After getting a few interesting suggestions from some members, it'll be minorly reorganized in such a way as to make the puzzle easier to solve. The enemies will not be modified, unless people express a distinct inability to beat them.

  • [ IV ]
    Enemies
    Some enemies will be tweaked in order to lessen the ratio of defense to evade, thus making them more reasonable to fight using strength.


Items on the list, upon being handled, will simply be striked out. They won't be removed from the list. Once the list is depleted, expect to see a Chapter V dev thread within a week!

Edited by Rumbleroar, 06 August 2012 - 11:39 PM.


#2 Shino

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 10:12 PM

If you switch around Twinpeak Mountain I will never ever love you again.
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#3 Dexel Hydagara

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 10:16 PM

Switch it around. Do eet.

In all seriousness, that and deserts were kinda annoying.

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#4 Secret Igshar

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:21 PM

If you switch around Twinpeak Mountain I will never ever love you again.

All we're doing to Twinpeak Mountain is turning it from a 35-area maze dungeon into a (slightly) more linear 25-30 area dungeon. Cutting a few of the obnoxious dead ends, making some paths shorter, etc etc.

Twinpeak South will be seeing no changes. It's not storyline, so irdc if it's convoluted, complicated, and obnoxious.

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#5 Dexel Hydagara

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:12 AM

Right, well, I've nothing new to contribute, really. All I can say is to place emphasis on changing areas around like the deserts. Lionel doesn't strike me as difficult, but you...kinda changed him a bit from when I fought him, didn't you? So I dunno what to say there either. Not to mention Suzie seemed to be having a bad time with him and even Candice took a while.

Crafting is just a mild annoyance, not really difficult or anything, but making it easier to get better stuff? Not sure I quite roll with that idea, since the only real excuse I have towards my non-Crafting policy is a) I'm lazy and b) sometimes the enemies fought for the specific loot are hard to find/defeat. Then again, that's pretty low on my list of cares since, as I said, I don't use it for anything. Aside from Keyblades.

Mana Forest...you know what, thinking on that one, I do have to agree it's a long stretch. Twinpeak was kinda confusing, though it wasn't really that horrible, and Owly Woods...well, I think we all know what I think about that one.

The only real beef I think I have is the absolute lack of clues about (or even mentioning of) secret stuff, some of which I only know the existence of because Shoutbox, but then it wouldn't really be secret stuff if it wasn't hidden, now would it?

TL;DR: I'm being dumb and not saying anything besides what you already said because I know most of my problems stem from laziness and also literally cannot remember anything that was pissing me off besides areas.

Edited by Dexel, 30 July 2012 - 10:15 AM.

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#6 Secret Igshar

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:05 AM

The easing of crafting is 99% the augments. Crafting weapons is not supposed to be a chore. It's supposed to be a fun part of the game. You should be able to craft AT LEAST two weapons without needing to do additional farming in each chapter, just by what you gather through normal story progression (plus a couple extra fights). AUGMENTS are the hard part right now. They're time consuming and irritating for no real reason other than I for some reason felt like being an asshole about it.

I pointed out the specific areas I did because people have unanimously complained about these areas in particular, not including the deserts. People complain of how long Mana Forest is, due in large part to how annoying the fights can be if you are not running the PERFECT set of stats (which isn't easy to find for an average player). People ALWAYS get hung up on TM for DAYS on end, simply because it's such a chore to climb to the peak. Dead ends on the mountain are as long as (or longer than) the path to the top. This makes it so you can go the wrong way for HOURS only to find out that it was the wrong way. And by then you feel it's better just to quit and start over from the beginning. That's not good. I want to fix issues like this.

And I feel no need to justify Owly Wood. It's not as straightforward as I intended it to be, so it'll be fixed up nicely so people will be better able to traverse it.


And most secrets are either barely off the beaten path (Training Grounds in Balamb Garden) or they're mentioned off-hand by certain characters (Colorful keyblades spoken of by Kayla/Aiden/etc). I don't think too many of the secrets are REALLY secret. Not even the elemental keyblade quest is all that hidden, as long as you've explored the Archylte Steppe. Once you start the quest, it follows through pretty easily to the end.

If you can point me to specific secrets which are never hinted at (or for which the hints themselves are too hidden) I would be more than happy to fix that and make the hints more explicit.



And as far as the Lionel boss goes... Some of you may not remember it, either through you putting yourself on a pedestal or otherwise making it out in your head that he was super easy... but practically everyone, besides the very "best" or "most experienced" players were thrown into a wall by Lionel. And that's bad. Every new player ends up stuck at Lionel for weeks, at least, before being able to finally move on. He's a big mage boss with craploads of :INT: who fights you RIGHT BEFORE you get your Crystals. So no matter how much :RES: you pack, he'll still cleave through you for 10+ damage while you can barely be packing 35 health.

Edited by Rumbleroar, 30 July 2012 - 11:08 AM.

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#7 Dexel Hydagara

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:26 AM

And most secrets are either barely off the beaten path (Training Grounds in Balamb Garden) or they're mentioned off-hand by certain characters (Colorful keyblades spoken of by Kayla/Aiden/etc). I don't think too many of the secrets are REALLY secret. Not even the elemental keyblade quest is all that hidden, as long as you've explored the Archylte Steppe. Once you start the quest, it follows through pretty easily to the end.

If you can point me to specific secrets which are never hinted at (or for which the hints themselves are too hidden) I would be more than happy to fix that and make the hints more explicit.


@Bolded: As much as that single sentence makes my blood boil after thinking what a pain even the straightforward path was, I gotta give you that one.

Wasn't quite planning on being heard out here, but okay. I'm thinking the keyblade you get with the Cyan Scroll - I have the Myst Knack, but the other item that is needed I have no clue on. Not one. Kayla's hint led me to Ramuh, and whether it's bad memory or having no clue, I don't remember anything about how to get the sword.

I've nothing to say more on secrets because I know no others in the Inferno (excluding what I find out with scans). :I

And as far as the Lionel boss goes... Some of you may not remember it, either through you putting yourself on a pedestal or otherwise making it out in your head that he was super easy... but practically everyone, besides the very "best" or "most experienced" players were thrown into a wall by Lionel. And that's bad. Every new player ends up stuck at Lionel for weeks, at least, before being able to finally move on. He's a big mage boss with craploads of :INT: who fights you RIGHT BEFORE you get your Crystals. So no matter how much :RES: you pack, he'll still cleave through you for 10+ damage while you can barely be packing 35 health.


Eh. Maybe I am making it out like that on accident. At any rate, that's why I said nothing. Modern Lionel seems pretty damn tough.

Edited by Dexel, 30 July 2012 - 11:33 AM.

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#8 Secret Igshar

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:42 AM

@Bolded: As much as that single sentence makes my blood boil after thinking what a pain even the straightforward path was, I gotta give you that one.

Wasn't quite planning on being heard out here, but okay. I'm thinking the keyblade you get with the Cyan Scroll - I have the Myst Knack, but the other item that is needed I have no clue on. Not one. Kayla's hint led me to Ramuh, and whether it's bad memory or having no clue, I don't remember anything about how to get the sword.

I've nothing to say more on secrets because I know no others in the Inferno (excluding what I find out with scans). :I


I'll have to look into that.

Yeah, uh... You're remembering Kayla's hint wrong. She gives you every step of the quest. o,o And no, this is not me being all *fixes it then pretends like you're dumb* because it's always been the way it is right now.

But I think it requires an extra visit to Ramuh somewhere in there that she doesn't explicitly state, but iirc the other NPC's which help you along through the quest should mention that...


Eh. Maybe I am making it out like that on accident. At any rate, that's why I said nothing. Modern Lionel seems pretty damn tough.

He was never changed. >.> Regardless, he has just been nerfed. Lost 2 points in each defense, 1 in both :INT: and :SPD:. I fiddled around with fighting him and decided that as he was just unnecessarily annoying, not even really hard. Your turns needed to alternate between attack-cure-attack-cure-attack-cure-aspil-cure-attack-cure... etc. Physical was a little easier thanks to Lifefont, but it still wasn't very simple, since he could hit for >10 while you heal 7 per slash, so you go down superfast. And running less than 10 :STR: put you sitting under 10 damage per shot of Blizz Strike, which left you pretty much bemoaning how obnoxious the fight was. Now, it SHOULD be better. I tested at level 7 and was able to play around with him, both with STR and MAG, so yeah. :>

#9 Ralor

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:42 AM

The only thing I can say is maybe make the temple after icy caves a bit easier.

Also, I explicitly remember beating Lionel on my second try. (First I forgot to look at stats in Mission) And I'm by far one of the worse inferno players. So idk.

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#10 Secret Igshar

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:43 AM

That's debatable. You still know how to work the numbers better than most newbies. Also I would feel very bad saying that one of the worst players managed to beat Alana+Blazier with 5 speed. That shit ain't easy.

And make the temple easier how, exactly? Puzzle-wise or enemy-wise?

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#11 Ralor

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:44 AM

*4 speed, but yeah. And on top of that, I beat Kain in the tourney, but that was pretty much pure luck.

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#12 Secret Igshar

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:46 AM

That was you using good stats in the tourney, not luck, at all. I remember Kain admitting that she got beat on the stats in that battle.

And make the temple easier how, exactly? Puzzle-wise or enemy-wise?

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#13 Ralor

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:48 AM

It's really been pretty tough just to even navigate, let alone get to a puzzle, and the enemies certainly don't help.

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#14 Secret Igshar

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:50 AM

You'll need to be more explicit than that, because I'm not really getting what all you mean. The area is really simple to navigate. ._.

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#15 Secret Igshar

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:54 PM

Added a new item to the list, and crossed two off that I took care of a little while ago. :>

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#16 Xanius

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:34 PM

In all honestly I didn't like a lot of enemies in the chapter. They had too much eva and def on them for me to fight strength honestly. Seeing an enemy with 18 def and 17 eva bothers me. Okay, I put on 17 dex I hit for 50% but I only have 19 str so I hit for 2ish damage. Kind of fail. Either high eva or high def. Not mid/high in both. >_>;

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#17 Secret Igshar

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 01:23 PM

With any luck, all of these changes will be finished today. Augments are 1/3 done and should be finished shortly~

I just wanted to give a small update to point out that the Posts required to play the Inferno is going to be dropping from 10 down to 1.

Why? While 10 posts is not a lot by any stretch and anyone should be able to easily find places to make those posts without spamming with how many posts and threads we have on the site right now, it also isn't REALLY necessary for an Inferno player to make many posts if they don't want to.

Plus, the sooner they play, the sooner they'll have stuff to complain about in the inferno sections. :>

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#18 Secret Igshar

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 03:16 PM

*4 speed, but yeah. And on top of that, I beat Kain in the tourney, but that was pretty much pure luck.

Just gonna quote this since I feel like pointing this out. It is and always has been physically impossible to have 4 :SPD:. You had 5. Regardless, 4 and 5 speed against Alana+Blazier would not make any difference at all, since they have 19 and 12 :SPD:.



Also, ALL Augment crafting has been successfully nerfed quite considerably. You can see all of the changes in your respective Crafting tomes, but I'll also point them out here for the lazy people among us.


All Tier I Augments initially require 10 pieces of one type of Loot (Tiny Leaf/Lilypad/Tiny Rock/Banana) or 5 for Natural I needing Rex Fangs.

Tier II Augments require a Tier I plus 10 pieces of one type of Loot (Metal Scrap/Magick Stone/Clump of Mud/Tree Star) or 5 pieces for Natural II needing Moldy Rocks.

The updated Tier I Augments require 5 of the same loot needed for the first Tier II recipes. Natural I's updated recipe remained the same at 10 Monster Pelts (since that one is still mega easy)

The updated Tier II Augments no longer require Tier I Augments to craft. They require just 10 of their respective Loot (Olympian Gold/Lime Jello/Aromatic Grass/Large Feather/Insect Husk)

Tier III Augments follow this same form, with each needing 10 of its respective Loot (Nepenthis/Cattail/Aurea Pollen/Down Feather) in addition to a Tier II Augment. Natural III needs 5 Alraune Drills in addition to a Natural II Augment.

Any complaints, feel free to voice them. :> I think they've become considerably easier to make, now, and with Tier I augments now being sold in chapter 4, I don't really see any of this being too tough at all. The lack of Dark Shards, Elemental Shards, and Dark Gems, in particular, should make people happy. The change for the original Nat I will likely tick some people off, but it fits nicely in-line with how the other Nat augments have been set up.

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#19 Secret Igshar

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:28 PM

Okay, everything has been finished, outside of monster adjusting in Chapter 4. That's gonna be done soon, too, though, so please, if you have ANYTHING that you take issue with throughout the first four chapters of the game, post them SOON. As in TONIGHT. NOW.

Because if they're not posted up before I finish monster stat retooling, the changes won't be made.

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#20 Secret Igshar

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 11:39 PM

As of a quick scan through and editing of a few stats here and there, I'm pretty sure everything in the chapter should more-or-less be A-OK now.

I saw a few stupid things, like the :DEF:-heavy monsters (the ones meant to be a bit tougher for strength to beat) being +3 :EVA: over the :DEF:-weak monsters, which was just silly. So I fixed that in IC top and bottom. LF in AF was a bit OP, but I had already fixed that when Kain had mentioned something about it, so :I Let me know if you still have issues with that place and I'll look into it closer. If your issues amount to "It is so slow to fight here with STR/STR or MAG/MAG," gfy.

The only other spot I fiddled with and changed was the final dungeon. Because 47 :RES: on one guy and 37 :DEF: backed by 27 :EVA: on the other was just stupid. Those two kept stupid-high numbers in those stats, but now they're MANAGEABLE rather than UNTOUCHABLE. Basically slashed 10 from :DEF: and :RES: and 4 from that :EVA: number, putting it at +2 over his ally. So if you can hit the ally, you can hit him, too, just with a slightly lower accuracy. :> It still favors splitting to conquer, but now it's not FORCED.


So, yeah. I don't really feel up for playtesting any areas with these changes, because I know Val's been playing STR/MAG and he's had no problems yet, aside from ones I fixed as he headed through. I also know I tested a few areas as STR/STR with Pezro when the chapter was in-development (OW, in particular) and I didn't have TOO many issues.

But *shrugs* If you guys run into any problems where you seriously think that the fights are too difficult to run strength realistically, let me know, so I can prove you wrong. ;3 Thanks, and have a great day.

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