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#1 Crimson Jazz

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:13 PM

My friend passed this article along to me earlier today and I want you all to read it and give me your thoughts. I never knew about this part of Black Panther history.

 

http://www.disinfo.c...ights-movement/

 

Also, discuss the "gun problem" here. What do you all think should be done about the apparent gun control issues this country has after seeing such recent tragedies like the Sandy Hook and Aurora massacres? Do you support stricter gun control laws, or are you opposed to such an act? Do you think Obama and his administration are using these massacres to "push his liberal agenda" like conservative pundits would lead you to believe? Should everyone be submitted to a background check and/or evaluated to make sure they are in the right state of mind?


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#2 Xanius

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:19 AM

I say we just change the amendments and just get rid of the right to bare arms like other countries have.


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#3 The Dream

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:42 AM

I'm not living in America so I don't know how things are over there but removing guns will probably help prevent massacres, like the recent events, from happening. You can't sit there and say "oh just another day" when something like this happens, especially when something could be done about it. The whole "BUT PROTECTION" thing is absolutely stupid. I live in a household where none of us have touched guns and my family has run into trouble before but we didn't need gun to get out safe. Guns are out there, yeah illegal guns but those are obtained from countries (pretty much like America) where guns are easy to grab. Even then gun crimes are not even a daily thing going on. I've heard most gun crimes in America (70%, not sure if that's the true figure though) of gun crimes have occurred with guns that were legally obtained. Now I'm not saying crimes will no longer happen if you remove guns but the fact that these guns were legally obtained is saying something. Maybe if guns weren't so easily obtained then you'd have less to worry about, plus walking around and casually saying "everyone's got a gun these days" is pretty damn alarming. Isn't that the whole reason why people are paranoid and want guns in the first place? Because "everyone" has one?

 

I also heard some stuff from the NRA (this is not entirely accurate and I've just had this float into my ear) actually want to supply the public with MORE GUNS. That they want people to "protect" themselves with more guns. Excuse me but what the heck!? That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Do you wish for chaos on the streets? People who are insane and have homicidal intentions will have no problem creating the situation that just happened weeks ago. In fact, this boy who did the shooting managed to do such a thing because the gun was so easy to obtain. It wasn't even his (this is what I've been told). So why the heck would want more guns being introduced when something like this can happen again, even more easily and frequently? I don't understand.

 

Now if for some reason everyone agrees to keep guns, how are you certain people are going to be strict with the laws? Even when laws are strict on something illegal items are circulated easily (look at drugs). If you make background checks how are you certain that gun will only be in the hands of the person who's name it is under? Also the amount of guns you can keep, how are you certain people will keep a limited amount? How are you certain guns will be kept behind a tight lock? How!?

 

That's right, you don't know. Unless you plan to have cameras everywhere, you don't know. You might as well just eliminate guns from the whole scenario. There is also an option of having guns obtained only if you have a license from the police, and even then those are only for hunting purposes which expire (I think)

 

Anyway, this is just an opinion from someone not living in America.


Edited by The Dream, 17 January 2013 - 01:44 AM.

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#4 Epic

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:20 PM

You know who I blame? I blame the guy that shot the kids. I know, it sounds kind of crazy, but perhaps he's responsible for his actions. Just saying.

 

And illegalizing guns will not solve gun violence. Just like how illegalizing drugs does not solve drug problems. You know what will happen if we get rid of guns? The money that USED to go into the pockets of businesses big and small will instead go into the pockets of gangsters, who will sell guns illegally. Cartels will have ANOTHER product they can sell and get more money out of. Just like with drugs. Just because you make something illegal, that doesn't mean people won't find SOME way of acquiring it.

 

 

Not to mention a fully armed population is a major deterrent for foreign countries looking to invade us. 

 

EDIT: Stricter background checks and we'll all be fine.


Edited by Poppa Epic, 17 January 2013 - 07:24 PM.

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#5 Crimson Jazz

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:40 PM

I say we just change the amendments and just get rid of the right to bare arms like other countries have.

 

I have to disagree. I honestly do believe that people should have the right to protect themselves from home intruders and such. If you or I feel the need to protect our home from possible robbers, we should be able to own a handgun or shotgun. I do believe a ban on semi-automatic and automatic rifles should definitely be put in place, though. Those types of guns should only be used by trained professionals (cops, sheriffs, military soldiers, etc)

 

 

You know who I blame? I blame the guy that shot the kids. I know, it sounds kind of crazy, but perhaps he's responsible for his actions. Just saying.

 

And illegalizing guns will not solve gun violence. Just like how illegalizing drugs does not solve drug problems. You know what will happen if we get rid of guns? The money that USED to go into the pockets of businesses big and small will instead go into the pockets of gangsters, who will sell guns illegally. Cartels will have ANOTHER product they can sell and get more money out of. Just like with drugs. Just because you make something illegal, that doesn't mean people won't find SOME way of acquiring it.

 

 

Not to mention a fully armed population is a major deterrent for foreign countries looking to invade us. 

 

EDIT: Stricter background checks and we'll all be fine.

 

No one is saying that ALL guns should be banned/illegalized. However, regular civilians like you and me should not be owning assault rifles like AK-47s and others of the like. There should also just be stricter policies on how one legally obtains a gun (handgun, shotgun). Stricter background checks, examination of purchaser's mental state and those s/he may live with, etc. etc.

 

I also believe the government should try to come down harder on illegal guns, but that may be all too impossible. (especially since the government supplies a lot of drug cartels and gangs with guns)


Edited by Crimson Jazz, 17 January 2013 - 09:43 PM.

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#6 The Dream

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:45 PM

And illegalizing guns will not solve gun violence. Just like how illegalizing drugs does not solve drug problems. You know what will happen if we get rid of guns? The money that USED to go into the pockets of businesses big and small will instead go into the pockets of gangsters, who will sell guns illegally. Cartels will have ANOTHER product they can sell and get more money out of. Just like with drugs. Just because you make something illegal, that doesn't mean people won't find SOME way of acquiring it.

 

Or you know the police could do their job? Since Americas military is so great why not make the people back home better at their job at protecting?

 

I never said illegal guns will disappear as well if you ban guns but there's a lesser chance of people obtaining one because I don't think your average person is going to go hunting for gang members to buy guns from >_> If people are really serious about stopping this gun stuff then you might as well start kicking the arses of lazy and corrupt police officers and make sure they do THEIR JOB to protect everyone. Not only that, this massacre at Sandy Hook was cause by the guy who shot everyone, yeah I'm not gonna deny that, but did you pay attention to how he got a gun? It was his mothers gun which was able to obtained before because the gun laws allow people to grab guns. Sure you can have background checks but what if someone else in their household goes insane one day? You're never sure about someones mental state. If not someone currently living there what about someone who comes over for a few days? I'm sorry but stricter ground checks aren't going to prevent these crimes completely, heck they might only prevent them a little bit.

 

Look other countries can survive without gun why does America need them so badly, huh? Everyone else in other countries can protect themselves just fine even though illegal guns are out there. Is America that paranoid in this day and age where people have better things to do like worrying about their own country?


Edited by The Dream, 17 January 2013 - 09:47 PM.

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#7 Epic

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:43 AM

That post was more of a response to Kai about the "ban all guns" thing. We have a quote thing. Should have used that. xD

 

 

Dream, fact of the matter is police officers don't always get there in time and people don't always have a way to contact them (Phone bill late, no phone at all, intruder between you and the phone, no security system, security system or phone line cut). As a man with a family and a gun owner myself, I like to know that if an intruder or multiple intruders are in my home, I have a gun nearby that I can use to defend my family while putting myself in no immediate danger. I'm not opposed to the banning of assault weapons.

 

But back to my whole invasion deterrent point, we should have a way the American people can get a hold of assault weapons quickly and form a formidable militia if worst comes to worst.


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#8 Ralor

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:12 PM

Guns are really shit. We don't even need them for protection. Knives are a household consistency. Get a bow, a slingshot, swords, whatever, and you're good.


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#9 Xanius

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:15 PM


Saying you need a gun for protection just isn't right. You shouldn't have a need for that in the first place. We should make sure people can't have guns so they cant do stpid shit, I'm not LOL GUYS LETS GET RID OF ALL GUYS HEREHER I'm saying that people shouldn't have gun. No normal person walking the street should be carry a gun with them at all. I've bumped into 4 people in a mall once and they had a holster on their side, could it have been for a phone? Sure. But it was long. Let hunters have their guns after they past tests, physicial and mentally. After they go through background checks and receive  authorization from a Doctor that they can handle a weapon. That he is not mentally ill no does he show ANY signs of those that are related with suicidal thoughts or thoughts to harm others.


Also, I'm not AGAINST people PROTECTING themselves. But with a gun... its just wrong. Some 15 year old kid tries to grap your wallet and you shot him in the head, killing, his life is done, family will be crushed. All because he a mistake on taking your wallet right? But if you had a stun gun, mace even, you could have stopped it without killing the boy right? Thats where it hits me. People dont want people to use guns and are afraid of those that have guns. But the same people have guns and will use them. Causing more destruction, more hate, more suffering. This will always go on but we can limit it.

In countries were guns arent allowed, crime rate feel drastically, same with murders and drug rings hanging around. People left cause no one could work around with a weapon at all. It was too dangerous to do any operations at all. But thats beside the point really...


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#10 The Dream

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:38 PM

Saying you need a gun for protection just isn't right. You shouldn't have a need for that in the first place. We should make sure people can't have guns so they cant do stpid shit, I'm not LOL GUYS LETS GET RID OF ALL GUYS HEREHER I'm saying that people shouldn't have gun. No normal person walking the street should be carry a gun with them at all. I've bumped into 4 people in a mall once and they had a holster on their side, could it have been for a phone? Sure. But it was long. Let hunters have their guns after they past tests, physicial and mentally. After they go through background checks and receive  authorization from a Doctor that they can handle a weapon. That he is not mentally ill no does he show ANY signs of those that are related with suicidal thoughts or thoughts to harm others.


Also, I'm not AGAINST people PROTECTING themselves. But with a gun... its just wrong. Some 15 year old kid tries to grap your wallet and you shot him in the head, killing, his life is done, family will be crushed. All because he a mistake on taking your wallet right? But if you had a stun gun, mace even, you could have stopped it without killing the boy right? Thats where it hits me. People dont want people to use guns and are afraid of those that have guns. But the same people have guns and will use them. Causing more destruction, more hate, more suffering. This will always go on but we can limit it.

In countries were guns arent allowed, crime rate feel drastically, same with murders and drug rings hanging around. People left cause no one could work around with a weapon at all. It was too dangerous to do any operations at all. But thats beside the point really...

 

^^^^^^This is everything I was trying to get at. People saying they need a gun to protect themselves is ridiculous and you never really know anyone's state of mind. Like Ral had said (though there are more realistic ways to protect yourself) there are other ways to protect yourself. Also what are you going on about not having money for police? If emergency calls to the police are not free then something is very wrong there and last I checked everyone has a cellphones, whether it's an old Nokia or a new smartphone. Saying you can't trust that the police will protect you in back situations too is also something worrisome >_>


Edited by The Dream, 18 January 2013 - 05:41 PM.

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#11 Lexaeus

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:38 AM

http://www.assaultweapon.info/

 

This was a nice little presentation worth ten of your minutes or less. Never clicked on any the blue words for sources but its worth a read to make sure what it does talk about you are no longer misinformed. I already knew most of this, but in my discussions with people I was surprised how many didn't know a similar 10 year had been passed or what's the difference between assault rifles and assault weapons and why banning certain guns or cosmetics is ridiculous and an injustice toward's our God-given freedom.


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#12 Secret Igshar

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:00 AM

http://www.assaultweapon.info/

 

This was a nice little presentation worth ten of your minutes or less. Never clicked on any the blue words for sources but its worth a read to make sure what it does talk about you are no longer misinformed. I already knew most of this, but in my discussions with people I was surprised how many didn't know a similar 10 year had been passed or what's the difference between assault rifles and assault weapons and why banning certain guns or cosmetics is ridiculous and an injustice toward's our God-given freedom.

Excuse me for a moment while I tell you to stop with your silly talk. Allow me to entertain your religion for a time to call you on your stupid. God did not create firearms. God did not write the Bill of Rights. God had absolutely nothing to do with the current state of guns outside of His creation of Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. I despise when people bring religion into politics. If that's your justification here, kindly see yourself out. Thanks.

 

I was not aware of the information in that link, though, so thanks for that. :>

 

 

 

Now, on topic, I don't agree with any further ban on guns. I do agree with stricter gun control in the way in which they are sold to people. There's a whole mess of loopholes that allow people to get guns without background checks right now (the gun show loophole). We need to fix that before we worry about other things.

 

In addition, people need to stop being so damn blinded about these incidents. Most often, crimes of gun violence are NOT RELATED TO MENTAL ILLNESS. The Sandy Hook massacre was an act of terrorism, as was the event at Aurora. I'm sick of people trying to make excuses for these white folks saying "oh they're white they must have just been mentally ill in order to perform such a dreadful act" when that's not the case at all. It's offensive to mentally ill people, and it unfairly paints them as violent and dangerous, moments away from snapping and shooting up kids. I'm sorry, life doesn't work that way.

 

With the state of this country right now, nothing is going to stop gun violence outside of legislation along the lines of Switzerland, where more people are given guns and guns become more a staple of society and less seen as some sort of horrible, terrifying thing. The vast majority of people are level-headed and smart enough to not shoot up innocent people. If more people had guns, they'd be able to stop the assholes who WOULD shoot up people by simply drawing their own piece and taking out the criminal. Criminals will shoot people anyway. Might as well give folks a means to defend themselves. Like seriously. In addition, they act as a deterrent to crime. A criminal walking into a place with no guns will feel like a god among mortals, whereas a criminal walking into a place where most people are carrying a weapon would be and feel significantly less powerful. Right now, a hero in these situations is someone who risks or sacrifices his/her own life to protect others. With more guns given to people, a hero can be that one person who takes out the murderer BEFORE s/he kills a room full of first graders.

 

I see and understand the argument about guns being lethal and there existing less lethal means of handling such issues, but I'm also a firm believer in the death penalty in cases of murder. I don't like "life in prison without parole" because I believe that falls under cruel and unusual punishment. If you're going to kill the dude, why beat around the bush? If he's too dangerous to release back into society under any circumstances, why not just remove him from society entirely? I don't get that.

 

And the hypothetical situation of the kid stealing your wallet and then you shoot him is a terrible scare tactic. Nobody is going to actually kill somebody for stealing his wallet. But if the kid takes your wallet and you draw your gun on him, that kid's gonna hand the wallet back to you, or else he's gonna run. Just. Like. This issue is SO MUCH BIGGER than the fact that there are easier ways to deal with a petty thief, and I don't agree with comparing it to such. :I

 

 

 

//EDIT: ONE MORE THING. I am sick and tired of people hating on the police department, saying that it doesn't do its job. Those people are some of the bravest people in the world and you can sit here at your computer screen and tell THEM that THEY are doing nothing? Are you SERIOUS right now? They do the best job that they can. There aren't nearly enough police officers to man every street corner and every building across the nation and keep everything safe. Why the hell do people EXPECT that to be the case? I mean, seriously. How about you become a police officer and go through what they have to every single day for a year or so and then come back and tell me that they don't do their jobs well enough for you.


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#13 Lexaeus

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:02 PM

Excuse me for a moment while I tell you to stop with your silly talk. Allow me to entertain your religion for a time to call you on your stupid. God did not create firearms. God did not write the Bill of Rights. God had absolutely nothing to do with the current state of guns outside of His creation of Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. I despise when people bring religion into politics. If that's your justification here, kindly see yourself out. Thanks.

 

Uh, I was more referencing by banning guns my right to life and right to liberty are more in jeopardy. And I wouldn't even say I was bringing religion into politics. I'm not going to go further into this though.

 

The rest of your post was nice. :D


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#14 Secret Igshar

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:26 PM

Uh, I was more referencing by banning guns my right to life and right to liberty are more in jeopardy. And I wouldn't even say I was bringing religion into politics. I'm not going to go further into this though.

 

The rest of your post was nice. :D

Fair enough, I was just testy. Didn't mean it to be as mean as it sounded. :X Sorry.

 

THE REST OF THE POST WAS AN ANGRY RANT ABOUT INTOLERANT ATTITUDES AND LOGICAL FALLACIES INHERENT IN OUR CURRENT CULTURE HOW WAS ANY OF THAT NICE WOW.

 

You have a loose definition of nice.


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#15 The Dream

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:14 PM

In addition, people need to stop being so damn blinded about these incidents. Most often, crimes of gun violence are NOT RELATED TO MENTAL ILLNESS. The Sandy Hook massacre was an act of terrorism, as was the event at Aurora. I'm sick of people trying to make excuses for these white folks saying "oh they're white they must have just been mentally ill in order to perform such a dreadful act" when that's not the case at all. It's offensive to mentally ill people, and it unfairly paints them as violent and dangerous, moments away from snapping and shooting up kids. I'm sorry, life doesn't work that way.

 

With the state of this country right now, nothing is going to stop gun violence outside of legislation along the lines of Switzerland, where more people are given guns and guns become more a staple of society and less seen as some sort of horrible, terrifying thing. The vast majority of people are level-headed and smart enough to not shoot up innocent people. If more people had guns, they'd be able to stop the assholes who WOULD shoot up people by simply drawing their own piece and taking out the criminal. Criminals will shoot people anyway. Might as well give folks a means to defend themselves. Like seriously. In addition, they act as a deterrent to crime. A criminal walking into a place with no guns will feel like a god among mortals, whereas a criminal walking into a place where most people are carrying a weapon would be and feel significantly less powerful. Right now, a hero in these situations is someone who risks or sacrifices his/her own life to protect others. With more guns given to people, a hero can be that one person who takes out the murderer BEFORE s/he kills a room full of first graders.

 

The first part, I was told the man had a mental sickness but even then that wasn't much of a reliable source so thank your for clearing that up.

 

To the second part, it just brings up the little thing I mentioned in the shoutbox before. How in the world do you expect people to protect themselves with guns? I understand numbers are intimidating and terrifying (of course I'd shit my pants if I was criminal and walked into a room where everyone had a gun) but to my that just screams the image of a chaotic scene where everyone pulls out a gun and someone innocent gets shot by accident anyway. I also doubt the average human will be able to shoot a bullet headed straight at them. That all just brings me up to my point (to counter the more guns point), why not just ban guns and give everyone a bullet proof vest? If you're so paranoid that someone with a gun will walk in why not have everyone get access to a bullet proof vest? I'm also sure everyone has common sense in their head and would dive for cover when stuff gets nasty and since the police are there to protect you someone should be able to be smart enough to call the cops at the sound gun shots.

 

Lets not forget the state of the economy and everything else in Switzerland is pretty sweet, which means there are less people with stress and other emotions that could force the hand of someone with a gun. When lots of things are on someones mind you never know what they could do (no I'm not commenting on mental sicknesses, I'm making not of the everyday worries that affect people in different way). I'm not saying you would take out a gun and shoot someone when pressured a lot (and because you feel that you have power with a gun) but other people have different thought processes and so on. Last time I checked Americas economy is pretty screwed.

 

Anyway, overall I'm just saying the best offense (against gun crimes) is a good solid defense (what's the point trying to shoot someone that you can't kill).

 

Note: I'm not neglecting the fact that people could just try and shoot someone in the head but I'm pretty sure people will be able to save themselves before that happens because lets not forget shooting someone in the head is probably harder than it looks.


Edited by The Dream, 21 January 2013 - 11:14 PM.

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#16 The Dream

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:36 AM

Bloop, I stumbled upon something and thought it was interesting and relevant to this thread.

 

http://www.addicting...y-is-that-true/


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#17 Kingroy

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:09 AM

Stop stumbling over things. You're drunk.

 

That's not surprising in the least. I'd expect that tbh. Guns are easy to access and there is at least a dozen deaths a day or something...

 

That's not a real statistic but that sounds legit.


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#18 Epic

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:19 PM

Here's the solution; total legalization and taxing of currently illicit drugs.

 

Gun violence is only the symptom. If you legalize drugs, the gangs lose their number one product. They'll have no funding, collapse, and violence will ultimately drop. By a lot. Our gun policy is just fine the way it is. Well, we can close the gun show loophole, but that goes without saying. It's our drug policy that needs to be fixed.


Edited by Epic, 30 March 2013 - 03:47 PM.

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#19 Dexel Hydagara

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:05 PM

http://defensedistributed.com/

 

I'll just drop that here due to relevance.


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#20 The Dream

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:09 PM

Here's the solution; total legalization and taxing of currently illicit drugs.

 

Gun violence is only the symptom. If you legalize drugs, the gangs lose their number one product. They'll have no funding, collapse, and violence will ultimately drop. By a lot. Our gun policy is just fine the way it is. Well, we can close the gun show loophole, but that goes without saying. It's our drug policy that needs to be fixed.

 

 

As far as I know drugs aren't the only causes for domestic gun violence (or violence in general). It may be a big factor in urban areas but I'm pretty sure there are other reasons crimes with guns occur. There are drugs which just can't be legalized too like meth and cocaine. Play with drug laws, the only one I can see being legalized is marijuana. If you legalize drugs then you're going to have drug abuse problems just like there is gun abuse problems. Also I'm pretty sure gangs have other ways of milking money from the public and if they still have access to guns, well I'm pretty sure shops are going to be raided for drugs and sold for an even cheaper price on the streets, just like how some illegal guns are probably acquired. Not to mention there are plenty of other ways to for gangs to get money.

 

I know there are people who keep their guns safe and use them responsibly but the violence and abuse of the privilege that comes from the public given access to guns is a significant number and it is terrifying. If there are countries all over the world which can survive without guns and would be able to hold up against some paranoid idea of an invasion then why does America need guns? For a developed country the crime rates there are a disturbing number. Not to mention not every crime in the world is reported so guns used in crimes other than immediate ones like homicide might be at an extremely large number. After all I'm pretty sure a person with a gun is intimidating. With that said the whole "arm everyone" is the most stupid idea I've ever heard. The best offense is a good defense and I'm pretty sure shooting bullets at each other is not going to help anyone, instead it'll make America extremely chaotic.


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 Gif not by me

A little one