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Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes v Women in Video Games


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#1 Secret Igshar

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:53 PM

Anita Sarkeesian caused a lot of outcry from (typically) male gamers not long ago by calling out video games for being sexist and misogynistic. She started a kickstarter, hoping to raise funds to release a series of videos where she would attempt to actually persuade those nay-sayers that they were wrong for defending these sorts of things. The first of these videos went live yesterday. Watch it. Share your thoughts. I don't want to influence anyone's opinions before you watch it, but please refrain from making short, inane posts about how dumb (or smart) she is without backing your words up with specific reference to the points she made that you found dumb (or smart) along with reasons why you think they are bad (or good).

 

 

I posted this in intel because I think this is a really important issue to have a serious, intelligent discussion about. And let's try to keep it civil. It's a discussion about an issue. Nothing said here should be personal. Don't go slinging slurs at each other, please and thanks. <3 We've all heard the nonsense jokes of women playing video games and we don't need any of that repeated here.

 

PS. that all just means I'll actually be policing this thread and deleting pointless posts and comments.



#2 Valor

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:38 PM

I think a lot of what she said is pretty damn true. The trope is tired and it's nice to see some more current games bucking the trend as much as they possibly can. Issues are that it's heavily ingrained in our culture.

 

Gonna pick on Dion a bit for an example, but not like calling him out.

 

New Tomb Raider. Strong female lead character. Still, mentioned of how beautiful and likeable she is and comments about her bewbz and buttz. Yeah, it's joking, but there are a lot of people out there who won't see it that way. I'm sure more than just him have made comments like that about this game.

 

Flip the script on myself here, playing Final Fantasy XIII I made Light my lead because her hips don't lie. I love her character, too, but her walk cycle is also pretty nice. So no, it's not just Dion who fall prey to that sort of thought process, even though they aren't super serious when they make comments.

 

Getting back to the retro games, I see it as tired plot devices and reasons to play games. You can't make a huge story in these games, and it's an easy excuse to be like hey play the game.

 

Star Wars had a damsel in distress in Leia. It's a classic trope, like she said. I agree with what she says though 100% in that with the re-releasing games and stuff this trope is having a come back, which is not good because yeah, games are part of the social culture of today. That said, I don't think it's necessarily doing harm and many people see them as classic games and you can play them and go lol save da princess.

 

Not trying to belittle anything she says because I agree with everything she is saying here. It's not even all about feminism either, it's about lazy writing and character concepts.

 

There are a lot of strong female characters these days too, though:

 

portal/2, most Final Fantasy games, actually, Tomb Raider, Mass Effect (though they do HEAVILY overuse MaleShep.), Heavenly Sword (still she's mildly sexualized), and others. It's still an issue of how they're being used in games, but it's nice to see that the damsel trope is getting mildly played out (at least in terms of games that I currently play)


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#3 Ralor

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:49 PM

The Damsel in Distress trope is actually subverted and lampshaded SEVERAL times in TLoZ, subversion primarily by Zelda often KNOWING she's going to be Damsel-ed, or ultimately CAUSING her own damselization. It's also been lampshaded several times, as mentioned before, by both Miamoto, characters, AND the fans.

 

I also wish she would note the inversions of the trope, as there is even one in the Mario franchise, Super Princess Peach. Though that's the only notable inversion of the trope I can think of, I'm sure it happens more than you think. Also, I love how she doesn't note Super Mario RPG OR the Paper Mario series as main-series Mario. Sure, they don't follow the main formula, but when criticizing that very formula, it's very one-sided only taking the games that fit the formula.

 

I am not too big of a Mario fan, especially compared to Zelda, because Mario abuses this trope to the extreme. It doesn't even TRY to subvert it most of the time, unlike Zelda, which generally subverts it for at least a good amount of the game, or lampshades it. Heck, in Skyward Sword we find out that she's not been kidnapped most of the time, but is actually carrying out her own journey in parallel.

 

I'll admit, though. It's lazy writing in a lot of cases, and could easily be averted, but most of the time these days it's done by popular formula franchises like Mario and Zelda, which, even now are sometimes trying to break free from this trope.


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#4 Dion

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:55 PM

Okay, I'm going to start this post by saying that while I DO agree with a lot that she says through her video, she's kind of stupid in a lot of different regards. I agree whole heartedly with how the trope prevails dominantly through the video gaming field, but the thing with it is that's kind of a little too solidly implemented to just "throw away".

 

For instance, the whole purpose of Mario games is to beat Bowser and save Peach. The problem with just throwing away the whole idea of how Mario saves Peach is that it's kind of what the games revolve around. Now, if all of a sudden Peach were to find the power to escape from her captor and make her way back to Toadstool, Mario would have NOTHING to do. The core problem with Mario games in the respect is that Mario has never had an intricate plot (aside from the Mario RPG games, which I will address shortly). Mario's NOT about saving the world. It's not about an evil turtle that wants to dominate the world. It's about a plumber who's implied to be in love with a princess and a turtle that is supposedly forcing her into staying in his castle or something. Bam, take all of that away and Mario games cease to exist. 

 

The thing about this is that Mario started its life as a series very early on. (Which also happens to be the case for Zelda games herp derp) Early games simply didn't have the technology to have intricate plots that revolve around character development and progression through the game. They simply always had one objective. In Mario's case, it just happened to be Peach needing to be rescued. Mario has always been a light hearted series with little in the ways of plot and character growth. If you can give me ONE good substitute for the whole "Bowser kidnapped the Princess", go ahead. Because if it was a game about a plumber that was supposed to retrieve a stolen artifact for the princess there would be criticism about how the princess couldn't do it herself. If the princess did it herself, the game wouldn't be discussed at all. 

 

Also, to note, in subsequent spin offs of the series there is usually IS an intricate plot. (Paper Mario, Mario and Luigi etc). There is often times no Damsel in Distress factor in those games.

 

 

 

My second problem with the article:

 

She actually doesn't talk about anything relevant. She discusses two game series that over 30 years old and points out instances of the trope being used around 80-70 years ago. What. I don't even see the point of the video in that sense.

 

 

I agree with the whole "Zelda gets powered down in true form" etc thing, but the fact still remains: She was a headstrong, actually powerful character in her other forms.

 

meh, my feelings about this whole thing are convoluted. I want to agree with her and do to some extent but I just don't see how can say that this trope is particularly annoying when only few games actually use it. there are a lot more powerful vidya game female characters nowadays and to be honest, the whole "games being remade and new generations subjected to this shit" thing is dumb because this generation also has AWESOME  female protags such as the new Lara Croft, Chloe Fraizer, Samus, Lightning, Cortana and even Jill Valentine. 


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#5 Secret Igshar

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:28 PM

I'll admit, though. It's lazy writing in a lot of cases, and could easily be averted, but most of the time these days it's done by popular formula franchises like Mario and Zelda, which, even now are sometimes trying to break free from this trope.

The point she's making in the video doesn't have to do with the trope being tired, boring, or done before. Subversion and lampshading don't eliminate the trope's existence. She's pointing to the trope being problematic, in a big-picture sort of way to the overall impression and image of women that gaming puts off. It's a very prevalent trope that's seen across most genres of games, and it instills, very subtly, the idea that women are weak and fragile and need to be saved, protected, etc by someone else, who generally happens to be a man.

 

 

 

Okay, I'm going to start this post by saying that while I DO agree with a lot that she says through her video, she's kind of stupid in a lot of different regards. I agree whole heartedly with how the trope prevails dominantly through the video gaming field, but the thing with it is that's kind of a little too solidly implemented to just "throw away".

That's a weak justification for continuing the representation of women as weak and needing to be rescued.

For instance, the whole purpose of Mario games is to beat Bowser and save Peach. The problem with just throwing away the whole idea of how Mario saves Peach is that it's kind of what the games revolve around. Now, if all of a sudden Peach were to find the power to escape from her captor and make her way back to Toadstool, Mario would have NOTHING to do. The core problem with Mario games in the respect is that Mario has never had an intricate plot (aside from the Mario RPG games, which I will address shortly). Mario's NOT about saving the world. It's not about an evil turtle that wants to dominate the world. It's about a plumber who's implied to be in love with a princess and a turtle that is supposedly forcing her into staying in his castle or something. Bam, take all of that away and Mario games cease to exist.

I argue that the alternative - an evil turtle bent on destroying the plumbing - is no less simple, contrived, or cliche than using the damsel in distress plot device to trigger the action to begin. They are both tired stories that could be repeated endlessly on loop every generation with no major differences aside from removing the "princess" as the objective of the quest. You could turn Peach into that fourth playable character in NSMB. You could flip her from being weak and helpless and the prize for beating the game and turn her into a helpful ally who assists in winning the game. I don't see how this would be a dreadful change to a tired formula.

The thing about this is that Mario started its life as a series very early on. (Which also happens to be the case for Zelda games herp derp) Early games simply didn't have the technology to have intricate plots that revolve around character development and progression through the game. They simply always had one objective. In Mario's case, it just happened to be Peach needing to be rescued. Mario has always been a light hearted series with little in the ways of plot and character growth. If you can give me ONE good substitute for the whole "Bowser kidnapped the Princess", go ahead. Because if it was a game about a plumber that was supposed to retrieve a stolen artifact for the princess there would be criticism about how the princess couldn't do it herself. If the princess did it herself, the game wouldn't be discussed at all.

They had enough technology to create a story. The story they chose was beat the bad guy, get the girl. Why was there a girl you had to save? Why must they maintain this tired plot device? Nostalgia is really not a good reason for sticking to a potentially problematic plot device. And the argument of "it just so happened" is meaningless, here. What is preventing them from changing the formula? I mean, really.

Also, to note, in subsequent spin offs of the series there is usually IS an intricate plot. (Paper Mario, Mario and Luigi etc). There is often times no Damsel in Distress factor in those games.

Fair enough, but these games would be entirely irrelevant to a video discussing the prevalence of the Damsel in Distress factor, and she did mention them, just not by name. She pointed out how Peach is playable in Mario Kart and Mario Party and others. It's silly to level criticism about how she didn't mention one specific spin-off by name.

She actually doesn't talk about anything relevant. She discusses two game series that over 30 years old and points out instances of the trope being used around 80-70 years ago. What. I don't even see the point of the video in that sense.

She was describing and justifying why this trope was a thing. She pointed to early instances of it and explained how those influenced more modern instances. She explained how it isn't something limited to video games, and that they simply took it from the movie sources. The comments connecting the ape stealing a lady to Jump Man were very relevant for showcasing where the trope even came from.

I agree with the whole "Zelda gets powered down in true form" etc thing, but the fact still remains: She was a headstrong, actually powerful character in her other forms.

And the issue that she was pointing out here wasn't a lack of character or power, it was just the fact that they took a strong female character and then, as soon as she became more feminine, they pulled her away from the player and turned this (arguably) prettier Zelda into the new objective of the quest. You then end up needing to save the girly version of Zelda. That's all she was arguing. It's not even outright criticizing those games in particular, but rather that they just served to CONTINUE the stereotype/trope, despite having the tools available to subvert it. The big picture point here is not about these particular instances but about the prevalence of this trope in the medium and how it subtly impacts things. It only adds to the problem, when video games (especially games produced by such behemoths of the industry as Nintendo) could be doing more to kick these tropes and remove these sorts of tired tropes from their main series of games.

meh, my feelings about this whole thing are convoluted. I want to agree with her and do to some extent but I just don't see how can say that this trope is particularly annoying when only few games actually use it. there are a lot more powerful vidya game female characters nowadays and to be honest, the whole "games being remade and new generations subjected to this shit" thing is dumb because this generation also has AWESOME  female protags such as the new Lara Croft, Chloe Fraizer, Samus, Lightning, Cortana and even Jill Valentine. 

All she's saying is that the trope is prevalent. She's in no way saying that this video is the be-all end-all to the discussion of women in video games. This is the first installment in a longer series. At the end of it, she mentions how the next part of this discussion will extend to more modern games and how they have been seeking to twist the damsel into something bigger, better, etc, and then talking about games where developers have tried flipping the script. I think your biggest problem is you're viewing this video as a standalone, where it's really only the first in a series that has yet to be made. She'll be discussing other tropes. She'll be praising games for their portrayal of female characters (she already did in this video with mention of OoT and WW). I'd share most of your opinions here if this weren't only the first video in what promises to be a much longer series.

 

 

Keep in mind that she's only citing specific examples of the trope to prove the points she's making. She's in no way demonizing these games and saying they're shitty and bad because of this trope being used in them. She's merely pointing out that it's a prevalent trope, and it's an issue to continue portraying female characters in such helpless roles where they need to be rescued by male protagonists. It's just one symptom of what feminism dubs the "Patriarchy" - that is the male domination of media and, by extension, the world. It subtly influences our views and opinions toward women and conditions us to see women as "lesser" or "weaker" or "needing to be protected." And I'm not saying - or even intending to imply - such things about anybody here. If you need proof of these sorts of things, just look up absolutely any post made by a woman which even remotely touts feminist ideals. You'll see scores of people (mostly men) responding to the post in a negative, non-constructive manner that (more often than not) deals with the fact that she is a woman, whining about inequalities.

 

 

Also, what I took out of the video, personally, was just a general sense and understanding of WHY this trope is bad and is something which should be avoided, if at all possible. I had an event planned for such a kidnapping and rescue of the primary female protagonist of my Great Sage novel, and only watching this made me realize how silly and pointless that scene was for her, the character being captured. What does her character have to gain from it? How does she become stronger as a character? The answer was, well, that she wouldn't. I re-wrote the scene in my head and ended up with something which uses the trope in a more effective way to allow it to develop both the captive AND the rescuer. It's just something to be cautious/conscious of, I feel.



#6 Ralor

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:18 PM

I know the trope is bad, but in all reality, most tropes ARE to an extent, mainly because the reason these tropes exist is the overanalysis of modern media. Not to mention, girls weren't the target audience for these games at that point, and even today aren't as much as guys. The fact of the matter is people then played games mainly to escape reality. These games made them the hero of a fantasy world. The Damsel in Distress trope is a terrible trope most times, no matter who the subject. (An exception to this would be like when Peach in SPM was a TOTAL MS. BADASS and escaped on her own.)

 

Also, this trope isn't even really anybody's fault. This kind of thing ACTUALLY HAPPENED at points in history. And there are tons of more degrading tropes. Ms. Fanservice, Gag Boobs, Male Gaze. It's not that it's not a bad thing, but there are bigger fish to fry than this trope. This trope is demeaning, but compared to Ms. Fanservice, Stripperific, Gag Boobs, and Buxom Is Better, this trope is SAINTLY. That's probably just the troper in me, though. Again, I know it's bad, I'm not trying to defend the trope, I'm saying that using this trope doesn't make anything instantly bad, and the game industry HAS been trying to break from this trope. The problem is that while it is, it's breaking into aforementioned worse tropes. :/


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#7 Valor

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 08:03 PM

She actually doesn't talk about anything relevant. She discusses two game series that over 30 years old and points out instances of the trope being used around 80-70 years ago. What. I don't even see the point of the video in that sense.

 

Did you miss the montage of clips of this exact same trope playing out? There are a ton. She even mentioned the sonic game with the save amy plot.

 

The point is that Miyamoto is one of the reasons that this plot is so prevalent. Even though games didn't have much in the way of story back then doesn't excuse the idea that it happened in a metric buttload of games then. A ton of games did that. A ton. Not just Mario or Zelda, but they're the two biggest and two that are still around today and still doing the trope.

 

Mario is tired as fuck and is still doing save princess peach. It's become a sad gag. That's why she harps on these two - PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED THEM and still do! She connects the railroad tracks and stuff to reasons that Jump Man existed as a precursor. It was built around this trope and hasn't deviated from it.

 

Paper Mario/RPG aren't main series Mario games. I figured people would be smart enough to realize what a "spin off" is.

 

There's going to be more to say on it, but she's making a lot of good and intelligent points for the subjects she's talking about so far o,o


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#8 Valor

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 05:52 PM

http://kotaku.com/59...g-needs-to-stop

 

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