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The Avengers [And Its Related Films]


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#181 Waker

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 10:29 PM

I agree with this curbstomping. But the thing is, I guess Whedon makes it really subtle to the general viewer what's going on that are actually big. Kinda like Busiek + Ross's Marvels.

 

And fuckers wanna discuss AoU but not discuss the stellar Season 2 of AoS? 

:V Skye went from being the hacker-babe to this super agent heading on to the Calvary, Black Widow, and Mockingbird's level of awesomeness. Did I mention she can manipulate ANY AND ALL VIBRATIONS? You know what that means? She's pretty much godlike... If she had enough control, she could literally go up against the likes of Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and whoever else. Her kryptonite would be Vibranium but regardless of that, she's still pretty frickin' powerful. In the comic books she stopped Wolverine while he was enraged by focusing on his heart and making it explode.... BY MAKING IT EXPLODE. bro.

I was gonna say something about how awesome that sequence was, like how did they even capture that with her moving so fast? Dayumn. She could go toe-to-toe with BW with just those combat skills. She's just not like how she was before at all; so good it almost seemed like a mistake and I thought I was watching a different show.


Edited by Waker, 04 May 2015 - 10:30 PM.

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#182 Valor

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 11:49 AM

http://www.comingsoo...s-age-of-ultron

 

Pretty interesting read. Spoilers ahoy.


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#183 Kingroy

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 04:30 PM

So a lot of the small details, that would've been huge, were altered by the execs. 


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#184 Valor

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 05:25 PM

So a lot of the small details, that would've been huge, were altered by the execs. 

Uh huh. Woulda loved to see some Spidey at the end as well.

 

Not too surprised by the Thor cave scene, but I also feel it was super important for the mcu, so I agree with the decision to include it. The fact it was so rushed and gross makes sense, however.


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#185 Sodomize-it Soro

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:48 PM

lol @ Dion being dum

 

I agree with what everyone else said basically, I actually enjoyed it far and above the first film, which I thought was great but not fantastic. My only major complaint was, as mentioned, the romance subplot between Bruce and Natasha. It did seem tacked on, though - emotional guy that I am - it won me over just a little bit with one of Natasha's lines: "You really still think you're the only monster?" (or something like that).

 

Regarding character deaths... I did expect at least one, more impactful death. But given Chris Evans' contract expiring after Infinity War, along with his statement that he no longer wishes to pursue acting, I think it's safe to bet Steve Rogers will probably die before the end of phase 3. Perhaps another familiar face will take up the Captain America torch? *coughbuckycough* Also given Chris Hemsworth's contract is about to expire as well, and since the next Thor film is Ragnarok, after all... I don't think it would be a long shot to bet on a Thor death either.

 

Also concerning Spider-Man... I don't know if it was intentional, but Scarlet Witch sort of made the webslinger's signature hand signal while walking towards Ultron near the end? So that may have been a very subtle nod.

 

alsoireallyneedtowatchagentsofshield;-;


Edited by Sodomize-it Soro, 05 May 2015 - 08:49 PM.


#186 Ralor

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 04:27 PM

Not sure how soon Thor will die, as of now, his contract covers 2 more movies. Ragnarok and IW, sure. But how is Thor surviving Ragnarok? Thor NEVER survives Ragnarok


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#187 Waker

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 05:13 PM

Not sure how soon Thor will die, as of now, his contract covers 2 more movies. Ragnarok and IW, sure. But how is Thor surviving Ragnarok? Thor NEVER survives Ragnarok

Maybe he'll just be making cameos in the form of flashbacks in IW unless the contract says he has to do a lot more.


Edited by Waker, 06 May 2015 - 05:14 PM.

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"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."
— Mark Twain

 

“I divide my officers into four classes; the clever, the lazy, the industrious, and the stupid. Each officer possesses at least two of these qualities. Those who are clever and industrious are fitted for the highest staff appointments. Use can be made of those who are stupid and lazy. The man who is clever and lazy however is for the very highest command; he has the temperament and nerves to deal with all situations. But whoever is stupid and industrious is a menace and must be removed immediately!”
— General Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord


#188 The Dream

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 12:38 AM

Alright, I went along with some friends to go watch Age of Ultron on the night it came out. I gotta say that from my point of view that film was much more enjoyable than the first. It wasn't award winning but it felt like a superhero film. There are, however, some things that just seemed so out of place in that whole film.

 

Spoiler


Edited by The Dream, 07 May 2015 - 12:39 AM.

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#189 Sodomize-it Soro

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 03:22 AM

I agree Dreamie, though she did have some stronger moments in the film it was disappointing to see her fall into some of the more unforntunate tropes - especially from Joss Whedon, who generally takes care to write very good female roles. However, I don't know if I agree about her "monster" line. Though I can see the reading of the unfortunate implications, I took the line solely as a way for her to connect with Bruce; from my perspective, she was referring to other things that made her a monster other than her forced sterilization. Her flashbacks did implicate murder as a requirement for graduating, for instance. And there's quite a bit of "red in her ledger", according to herself, so I doubt we're done with Natasha's monstrous past. I think I'll have to watch a bit more closely upon another viewing of the film.

 

Overall, it could have been handled a lot better.



#190 Xanius

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 04:32 AM

There's a lot going around about Black Widow and what she said about her being a monster.

I think a lot of people are reading into it as just shes a monster for being unable to have children. But it's sort of easy to look at the flashback and see all of the torment and terrible things she had to do. I mean... the one guy had a bag over his head and she had to straight up shoot him. We know she has had to do a lot of things, a lot of very terrible and wrong things. Things that people could be called a monster for. Think of how she might have killed someone that begged for their life, begged and said they had a wife, kids, etc, but had to do it cause of a job. Those things will really hit people that aren't messed up and actually have a conscience.

Bruce hates himself, thinks he's not good, not meant for anything, only to destroy. Widow can relate because thats what she was meant for. She was meant to just kill, get the job done, not care about anything else. She sees herself as a monster, some sort of terrible thing thats only done bad. Hence why she's doing her best to make up for all the bad shes done in her life. She falls for Bruce, she sees a future with him herself, she wants to escape everything and just be with him.

Widow being trapped in that cell, I dont think its a damsel in distress really. If she wanted to escape it would be really hard with Ultrons right there honestly. Yes, she probably could have gotten out the cell herself. But with an enemy like Ultron, she wouldn't have been able to do much in terms of actually getting away from there. So it'd probably be best to just call for help and wait for it to happen. She did a shit ton in the movie without any real help.

She jumped in and got vision basically by herself. She jumps out a plan on a bike and gets Caps shield back to him and saves his ass. She gets down and dirty and fucks shit up with her cool new suit and electro rods.

Over an hour was cut out of the movie, a lot more was probably suppose to be shown of Widow but didn't make it. It's really sad but you can tell that a lot of scenes were just rushed and sort of crap. Like Thors vision scene in the water place. That was very quick and brief.

I think the bluray version of the film is gonna be better with the scenes we get it in so yea...



 


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#191 Kingroy

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 08:00 AM

I haven't seen the movie yet but aren't people just jumping the gun on that line...?

 

I wouldn't think she would call herself a monster because of sterilization... But rather because as Black Widow she's done some nasty shit in the past... I mean maybe someone who's completely ignorant on Black Widow's character history would make the assumption, while ignoring those other scenes from her past.... But I can't really see how people would jump into that way of thinking.


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#192 Sodomize-it Soro

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 09:23 AM

I think the ambiguity comes from the poor way it was handled; the fact that she called herself a monster directly after revealing her sterilization - along with her taking on a motherly role in the film regarding Hulk (she's the only one who can calm him with a "lullaby") and the "Aunt Natasha" moments, as well as some oneliners ("I'm always picking up after you boys") - I can easily see how it can be interpreted as such. I don't believe this facet of her monstrosity was intentional or at least as intentionally stressed by Whedon as it comes off, but it's definitely important to point it out and criticize it for what it is.



#193 Valor

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 12:03 PM

I think the ambiguity comes from the poor way it was handled; the fact that she called herself a monster directly after revealing her sterilization - along with her taking on a motherly role in the film regarding Hulk (she's the only one who can calm him with a "lullaby") and the "Aunt Natasha" moments, as well as some oneliners ("I'm always picking up after you boys") - I can easily see how it can be interpreted as such. I don't believe this facet of her monstrosity was intentional or at least as intentionally stressed by Whedon as it comes off, but it's definitely important to point it out and criticize it for what it is.

Yes. It's totally fair to point it out and criticize it, but I don't think it's necessarily true either.

 

To me, I look at that scene with Natasha as a person who was raised to be a killing machine - an implement meant only to cause pain and suffering. All she does is take away life, she can no longer give it. I think it's a very powerful message, myself. I did buy that Natasha sees herself as a monster - many of the characters call themselves monsters in this movie. A lot of people are hard on themselves and are figurative monsters where the Hulk is a literal one. Natasha can also be a case for a literal monster as well, but she has a lot of redeeming qualities, I think. Could the writing have been a bit tighter? Sure. The issue definitely comes from the order of the information given, without a doubt. I do think it's just... ignorant... to assume that "because this was the last thing she said, she is a monster solely because of no babbies". It's just a dumb way to approach scenes, but it's also important at the same time to realize that it's a way people can read into things.

 

I also think it's fair to criticize Natasha as the mother of the group because, even if it wasn't intended, she does come off that way in many scenes. I didn't think twice about the Auntie Nat or the "picking up after you boys" but I think it's a fair criticism. We're in a social climate right now where female characters are being heavily scrutinized. Especially in the Avengers where a large majority of your main characters are white males and the token female. You're basically asking for huge amounts of complains to be levied against you. No Black Widow merch on the shelves + iffy characterization = problems left and right.

 

Are they all fair? No. Are they all important? I think so. While I'm sure a lot of people don't really dislike ScarJo's character, it's okay to not be 100% satisfied with it. There's always room to improve, I think. I hope a lot of writers see what happened here with Black Widow and try to avoid the same pitfalls going forward.

 

No, Widow being captured is not Damsel in Distress because she engineered the morse code thinger and relayed a message to Hawkeye that helped the entire team find Ultron and set the stage for the final conflict. Without her, they may not have arrived in time to stop him. She busts herself out, she doesn't wait for someone to rescue her.

 

I'm all over the place, but these are my thoughts.


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#194 Crimson Jazz

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 04:21 PM

Not sure how soon Thor will die, as of now, his contract covers 2 more movies. Ragnarok and IW, sure. But how is Thor surviving Ragnarok? Thor NEVER survives Ragnarok

 

I'm willing to bet the Time Gem will help with that.


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Holy crap! I just looked out my window and saw a huge ball of fire in the sky!!!


Oh wait.....

 

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#195 The Dream

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 07:48 PM

To me, I look at that scene with Natasha as a person who was raised to be a killing machine - an implement meant only to cause pain and suffering. All she does is take away life, she can no longer give it. I think it's a very powerful message, myself. I did buy that Natasha sees herself as a monster - many of the characters call themselves monsters in this movie. A lot of people are hard on themselves and are figurative monsters where the Hulk is a literal one. Natasha can also be a case for a literal monster as well, but she has a lot of redeeming qualities, I think. Could the writing have been a bit tighter? Sure. The issue definitely comes from the order of the information given, without a doubt. I do think it's just... ignorant... to assume that "because this was the last thing she said, she is a monster solely because of no babbies". It's just a dumb way to approach scenes, but it's also important at the same time to realize that it's a way people can read into things.

 

I also think it's fair to criticize Natasha as the mother of the group because, even if it wasn't intended, she does come off that way in many scenes. I didn't think twice about the Auntie Nat or the "picking up after you boys" but I think it's a fair criticism. We're in a social climate right now where female characters are being heavily scrutinized. Especially in the Avengers where a large majority of your main characters are white males and the token female. You're basically asking for huge amounts of complains to be levied against you. No Black Widow merch on the shelves + iffy characterization = problems left and right.

 

Are they all fair? No. Are they all important? I think so. While I'm sure a lot of people don't really dislike ScarJo's character, it's okay to not be 100% satisfied with it. There's always room to improve, I think. I hope a lot of writers see what happened here with Black Widow and try to avoid the same pitfalls going forward.

 

No, Widow being captured is not Damsel in Distress because she engineered the morse code thinger and relayed a message to Hawkeye that helped the entire team find Ultron and set the stage for the final conflict. Without her, they may not have arrived in time to stop him. She busts herself out, she doesn't wait for someone to rescue her.

 

I'm all over the place, but these are my thoughts.

 

Well the idea that she was calling herself that because of this reason did cross my mind but because how loosely it was delivered, right after what she had said about her sterilization, really sets off alarms.

 

The damsel in distress idea was a nitpick, I will admit, however the movie does enough for the casual viewer to make her appear that way when Hulk comes in an rescues her.

 

There's a lot about Black Widow that is just iffy and it probably won't die down for a while. Maybe some more analysis of the film will prove all these assumptions completely wrong however that fact that they were raised in the first place shows some serious flaws in the writing of this film.


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#196 Ralor

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 08:02 PM

A couple things-

1. Widow is FAR from a damsel in distress in this movie. She got captured in a sacrificial play to get the Genesis Chamber. AND she used it as an opportunity to reveal Ultron. 

2. Widow calling herself a monster may have been about more than the sterilization. In the conversation, she brings up the Red Room being the training facility she was raised in. Red Room, in the comics, was a facility in which, like many places, they experimented to try and reproduce PROJECT REBIRTH. So, if that's the case, she could be as much of a monster as Steve, or Bucky. Maybe not Bruce, but he's a different story. 


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